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Ronald Heintschel	Can Anyone tell me if it would be ok to jack up the car and put it on jack stands on the cross beam just under the engine Thanks Ron
2000Cat	There is a black pad located I believe on the frame on each side about where the front of the front door is. Just look under the car along the edge where the frame rail is you will see one on each side. those would be the front spots, for the rear, where all the frame members come together just in front of the rear wheels on each side is a good spot. To jack up any place else I wouldn't know. This message has been edited by 2000Cat on 11-04-2004 at 07:49 PM
RBADKAT	Ron,I have found that by using Ramps you can drive the car up and then use a jack with a 18-24 inch 2by4 to jack the car up further up and give yourself lots of room. But to answer your question , yes you can put Jack stands there. That means you got to raise each side up high enough to get Jacks under and they recommend that you jack up both side at same time. Ramps work great and easier than having to jack each side up first. JMO. Dan G.
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by RBADKAT: they recommend that you jack up both side at same time. Who is "they" - not the Factory Shop Manual. I use a floor jack to jack one front pads until both front wheels are well off the ground. I then lower the car onto jackstands placed at the two identified points of the "V" beams under the car. This sound like a good time of the year, before the holidays, to repeat what I've said many times before: SPEND THE 90 BUCKS ON A SHOP MANUAL TO SUPPORT A $45,000 CAR! JMHO -GRROWL
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by Ronald Heintschel: Can Anyone tell me if it would be ok to jack up the car and put it on jack stands on the cross beam just under the engine Now that I'm home with the Shop Manual in front of me (2000 prowler) here's what they show for jackpoints: Floor jack - any of the 4 pads on frame Twin-post swing-arm - same as above (2 pairs of pads) plus an additional location (2 points) that I mentioned along the "V"-beams. I will describe this further below. It does NOT show the cross-beam or welded plate under the engine as a jack point. I would interpret this to mean that the answer to your specific question is "NO". Since the 4 pads are shown for "floor jack", there is no warning against jacking at a single pad. The additional location for the twin-post jack is another story since it is not specified for "floor jack". As such, you need to lift at both points simultaneously to be consistent with the manual. If you look under the car, there is the welded rectangular plate directly under the engine. There are two beams that are welded to the front of this plate and head toward the wheels at an angle, what I am calling the "V"-beams. The pair of jacking points for the twin-post jack are approximately 1/3 of the way from the plate (or, 2/3 of the way back from the wheels). So, WHAT WORKS FOR ME (and I believe is 100% consistent with the manual) is to use a floorjack on one of the front pads, lift to the maximum height of the jack, and lower onto a PAIR of jackstands under the "V"-beams where I indicated. It would also be consistent with the manual to put a bar across the "V" and lift in its center with a floorjack - basically, you've created a twin-post lift. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT ONE WOULD HAVE TO BE OUT OF ONE'S EVER-LOVING MIND TO USE A WOOD 2X4 AS THIS CROSSBEAM. JM(not so)HO If you go to "The Garage" section on the home page, it shows 2 pages from the Shop Manual for towing. I have suggested in the past that someone add the previous half-page, which is exactly what I'm trying to describe. Oh, H$#%, maybe I'll try to scan it and include it in this thread, but I truly suggest that this be put in "The Garage" section before someone hurts their prowler (or worse). -GRROWL
idive	I would like to see a pic of what you are saying in your last post, but I don't think his question related to jack points as much as it had to do with the placement of stands when it is already jacked up. (Yea, I know the thread title is Jack Points, but re-read his question.) I don't really understand his question's purpose tho. I don't think you'll get the car any higher putting the stands under the engine than you will putting them in the proper locations at the specified jack points near the wheels on the outer frame.
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by idive: I would like to see a pic of what you are saying in your last post, but I don't think his question related to jack points as much as it had to do with the placement of stands when it is already jacked up. (Yea, I know the thread title is Jack Points, but re-read his question.) I don't really understand his question's purpose tho. I don't think you'll get the car any higher putting the stands under the engine than you will putting them in the proper locations at the specified jack points near the wheels on the outer frame. I'd love to see a picture on this board, too. I recommended that years ago. I believe the question is where to put jackstands. Under the engine, on the flat plate, NO (according to the manual). Forward of the flat plate, 1/3 of the way on the "V"-beams, YES - I do it all the time. -GRROWL P.S. - I tried scanning the manual, but I can't get the image size small enough to post. HELP!!!
idive	send it to me and I'll re-size it
Ronald Heintschel	I just purchased a KWIKLIFT and that is what the car is sitting on. About 32 inches off the ground and i want to take both front tires off to work on the break rotors . Will send pictures if i can figure how to down load them on the site. Thanks for all your help Ron
GRROWL	Here are the lifting points from the 2000 Prowler Service Manual: -GRROWL
Ronald Heintschel	GRROWL Here are some pics of where i want to jack up and place stands
Ronald Heintschel	must be doing something wrong can't upload pics
idive	Ron's pic of intent...
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by Ronald Heintschel: GRROWL Here are some pics of where i want to jack up and place stands Ron, It looks like you're pretty far forward by the A-arms and power-steering rack. That's WAY forward of the two pair of "official" lift points. Of more concern, where are the tops of the hydraulic "bottle" jacks. I don't recall any heavy-duty frame/suspension stuff above the frame in that area that I would trust. In any case, my suggestion for the front is to lift on the pads, lower onto jackstands at positions "A" (#2 and #5) from the manual. If you're talking about the rear, however, that's another story since there's only one pair of jack points. What I was taught is NEVER TRUST A JACK. When I installed a Mopar/Borla exhaust, I wanted to use jackstands, but there is only one pair of lift pads. What I did was put a floorjack under each rear pad, lift both sides, and lowered two solid frame/suspension areas onto the jackstands TO STABILIZE. I left the floorjacks in place holding most of the weight, but lowered just enough so that the stands wouldn't move. I figured, if a floorjack failed and if the selected points weren't strong enough, at least I would have enough warning to get out from under in time. You might want to use this same theory in the front if the two pair of "official" jack points aren't sufficient. BTW, Sears had a sale on a floorjack with jackstands last Spring. From memory, I'm pretty sure it was a 2-1/4 ton floorjack with a pair of 4,000 pound jackstands for $30 bucks total. I do find it convenient to have that second floorjack. (FWIW, it seems "standard practice" is to rate floorjacks singly (makes sense), but jackstands are rated per pair, and the standard "WalMart" 12,000 pound ramps are rated for total vehicle weight. SOOooo, that works out to 2,500 for the floorjack, but 2,000 pounds per jackstand and 3,000 per ramp. Not a factor for the Prowler, but it seemed interesting.) -GRROWL
Ronald Heintschel	will try to take some more pics tonight car is on a lift and the bottle jacks are touching the frame near the cross bar
GRROWL	As a coincidence, I just received this newsletter from Valvoline: http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/articleviewer.asp?pg=ccr20041001js """""""""""" Jacking and jack stand support points are also extremely crucial. A jack or jack stand in the wrong location can cause vehicle or bodily damage. Your owner's manual is a good place to find safe jacking locations for your vehicle. Never jack up a vehicle from a point not designed to handle the load. If unsure about where to place a jack or jack stand, the best strategy is to stop. Do not attempt to guess at a good location. You can easily put holes in your floorboards or worse—yourself! """""""""""
Larry Lord	quote: Originally posted by GRROWL: As a coincidence, I just received this newsletter from Valvoline: http://www.valvoline.com/carcare/articleviewer.asp?pg=ccr20041001js """""""""""" Jacking and jack stand support points are also extremely crucial. A jack or jack stand in the wrong location can cause vehicle or bodily damage. Your owner's manual is a good place to find safe jacking locations for your vehicle. Never jack up a vehicle from a point not designed to handle the load. If unsure about where to place a jack or jack stand, the best strategy is to stop. Do not attempt to guess at a good location. You can easily put holes in your floorboards or worse—yourself! """"""""""" Grrowl, Stop and think about your information source. That information is for a unibody car, not a tempered aluminum frame style lightweight car. It's also provided to you by a company trying to convince you to have them change your oil because it's unsafe to do it yourself. The Prowler frame is PLENTY strong to be jacked up in many different locations. Assuming a total weight of 2880 pounds and a 55% rear percentage, each front wheel carries 648 pounds of the total weight of the car and each rear wheel carries 792 pounds of the total weigh of the car. By using a short piece of wood to prevent frame marring, jacking up the car from just about any position should be no problem. No I didn't read the book. I'm talking from real world experience.
GRROWL	quote: Originally posted by Larry Lord: Grrowl, Stop and think about your information source. . . . By using a short piece of wood to prevent frame marring, jacking up the car from just about any position should be no problem. We mostly agree. I mentioned the article only because it seemed amusing that it arrived during this discussion. I also like your suggestion (in other posts) of a 2x4 along the frame and lifing a whole side at a time with floorjacks. Yes, spreading the load is the key - and I still don't like the idea of less than a square-inch of contact at the top of the bottle jack (needs to spread out) or the position in the picture (not below the frame). I agree, and do use a wood pad on a floorjack to spread the load, as you suggest, but I would STRONGLY suggest a piece of plate steel over the bottle jack - yes, I've had experience with a 2x4 piece of wood splitting when used over a bottle jack - not pretty. All in all, we're in agreement otherwise. I don't believe Ron has the clearance he needs to put a bottlejack between the lift ramps and the prowler frame if he includes a 2x4 (and a small steel plate so that the bottlejack doesn't punch through the wood). He does, however, have me intrigued about buying one of those lifts - do you have experience with them? -GRROWL
Larry Lord	Grrowl, Lo rise lifts are frequently used by tire shops and a few brake shops. They are inexpensive, take very little space and are quick and easy to use. One nice advantage to a lo rise lift it that you can drive on or off either end. This works well in limited saces. Lo Rise Lifts ------------------ Larry (Cruise Control) Lord Larry@FMBbox.com Products for your Prowler and Trailer: Wonder Bar Stabilizer Bars - Upright Trailer Storage Stands - Deck Lid Hinge Protectors - Trailer Latch Reinforcement Kits - KatRack Stowable Cargo Carriers - Pro-Strap Velcro Tie Straps - Keyed Alike Chrome Coupler Locksets - Logo Caps - Chrome Receiver Locks - Chrome Coupler Locks FMB Prowler Products.
Ronald Heintschel	If anyone wants to talk to me about the lift feel free to call me . My home phone # is 419-865-4229 Call anytime I live in Ohio Thanks for all the help Ron